Grit Laskin Interview, Page Two

by Rick Landers.

Continued from page one »

Have you worked with any handicapped musicians?

GL: I have not. It’s funny you should mention that because at one point there was somebody with a very serious handicap. He had lost an arm. He still found a way to play the banjo. We were looking at a way that we could make an instrument, the way we could make a guitar. But the order never happened. We had some phone calls about it.

No, I’ve never worked with someone with a serious handicap. But I’ve worked with lots of people with serious muscle problems either starting or happening. You know a tendonitis kind of thing or carpal tunnel syndrome.

I also make flamenco and classical guitars and I’ve dealt with a lot of people with nail problems wjere stress on the nails created skin problems, like cirrhosis, where skin would be flaking under the nail and the nail would lose adhesion. All kinds of things like that, just when you over stress the body,which all musicians do if they’re serious professionals and they practice a lot or perform a lot. It’s just too much of the same kind of things with the muscles.

So that’s the instrument. Still answering the question, you get to the inlay which is totally subjective and I’ll give you specifics. Now we’re answering your question, but the background was useful!

There was one guy from France who had a lot of interesting ideas. I’ll zip through those. Both on the guitar and I’ll get to the inlay that was intriguing. And it’s one that’s not been published, certainly since my book was published and it’s not at my website or anything.

He had me do a Brazilian rosewood neck with just an oil finish. And I actually like oil finished necks. They’re certainly much faster to play than anything with lacquer on it. Anyone will tell you that. A lot of classical people do that like in the violin world where there’s no finish where the hand grabs the neck. There's reasons it’s oiled to preserve it, but there’s no drag whatsoever. And it was lovely doing an oil finish on a solid Brazilian rosewood neck anyway.

And he had me do special bindings. And it was a small guitar with a cutaway and with an extended finger board. And he wanted to reach a particular note and that’s how we decided how far to extend the fingerboard. All kinds of stuff like that.

And then we got to the inlay and he wanted me to do something filled with all kinds of symbolism which I did in ways that I didn’t even explain to him at first. And he enjoyed knowing that we would have many conversations and e-mails back and forth. And his emails would be four to six pages, typical. And he’d send me images that he wanted me to include and paintings by artists he admired. He would tell me about the artists and what appealed to him. And I actually liked some of the artists he was talking about. One of them was Magritte, the Belgium surrealist. But another was Roy Lichenstein. You know the guy who did explosions that looked almost cartoony. But those were his original drawings. And he wanted it to be self-referential. He said, “Somehow blend all these things together to create a story a narrative, create a story line that you could discern if you spent enough time looking at the design.”

And so I did and he went bananas. He totally loved it. There’s all kinds of stuff on there. There’s binary code depicted pictorially, a shell and stone being light and dark, you know zero and one and what was the binary code saying. I called it the “big bang and in the center of the inlay it the entire fingerboard and headstock. So, in the center is an explosion like the big bang, the beginning of the universe but done in a Lichtenstein style. You know, cartoony! I’m there in two places. Even a sketch from one of my other inlays is in the inlay in a gallery there along with Magritte himself looking at it. There’s all kinds of fun stuff.

And there are position markers through all of this inlay so he can actually find the frets he’s looking for. They’re marked in cursors, computer cursors, cut out of silver so that they would contrast with the other stone and pearl and materials I was using. Stuff like that.

So in every way the guitar plus the inlay was such a reflection of this guy’s person that you can’t help but develop a connection with this kind of instrument unlike what you can ever have with any other kind of instrument. And I loved the process! It’s a lot of time chatting with people or e-mailing with people, whatever it is. But I enjoy the process and the challenge of getting the theme but still having the freedom of coming up with my design.

Your work seems to have a large degree of playfulness about it and interesting angles or twists. And obviously some of that comes from your clients. Do you have a whimsical or clownish nature about you?

GL: Absolutely! [Laughs] Yeah, yeah, I have a good sense of humor, for sure. And I enjoy doing all of those things. I’m very conscious of it. I like to get humor in there, but gentle and whimsical. When it’s a design you have to live with for a long time, if it’s too guffaw type humor, too much of a joke, it’s like hearing a joke for the tenth time. It really wears. You’ve lost interest. But if it’s gently humorous or subtlety humorous, that really works for me.

That plus the fact that there are the changing view angles when it works. And it’s more that many of my customers have seen what I can do athat they say that if anything seems appropriate go for it. I do get told that sometimes. But often I’ll do it if it makes sense anyway. Both of those things are things that never occurred in inlay. Not just in instruments, but where it was done typically. So, there are yet other barriers to enjoy breaking, just for the fun of it.

And get some legs or longevity I suppose.

GL: Well, it’s more creative satisfaction. That’s what it’s all about. It’s me, me, me! You know, satisfy myself! And I want the chance to do it. [Laughs] And those just make it fun really.

What are your favorite guitars or favorite guitars in general, dreadnaughts or…?

GL: Well, it’s interesting. I don’t make dreadnaughts. I make three different sizes of steel strings, but not dreadnaughts. I’m just not a fan of that shape, even though I’ve owned one in my life. But, I know they have their history and all that, but it just doesn’t do it for me aesthetically. A lot of people make good dreadnaughts, so, no loss.

You know, it’s a bit of both. Their look, it’s just a box. It really says “Box” as opposed to the curves, the curvier kind of guitars that appeal to me more aesthetically. But, yeah, when they’re good they’re meant to be a bass heavy instrument. And a particular sound also doesn’t do it for me. I can make a strong bass guitar, I don’t know, acoustically they don’t grab me, although, I’ve heard some lovely ones, no question.

I often get asked, “Who’s your favorite maker?” and you know, I’m not gonna tell you! [Laughs]

It probably depends on the guitar.

GL: Yeah, on which guitar and there are a lot of good people out there, there’s no question.

But in terms of my guitars one of my favorites actually is my little steel string. It’s a twelve fret neck. It’s a small body that’s not tiny. It’s not a parlor guitar. It’s getting close to classical guitar dimensions.

Like a Terz guitar?

GL: I’m not familiar. Anyway, it’s small for me but it’s not a small sounding guitar. It’s just the feel of it and the size and it’s surprisingly powerful for its size, a lovely finger picking guitar. I enjoy making those. I don’t know why. It’s very subjective. I love flamenco music too. I like making flamenco guitars too and I make a lot of those. It’s hard to say. I enjoy each. And then I can do three inlay projects in a row, and then I can have two classical or two flamencos to build, no inlays at all.

And it’s a nice palate cleansing time. It frees up the brain to be fresh, recharge the design batteries, and then I get back solely to all the challenges and pleasures of making instruments. And so I enjoy that too, getting all the joints perfect and that type of thing that are the day to day satisfactions.

Have you given any consideration to an inlay design that had topographic or relief features, like mountains or valleys that would rise above or fall below the plane of the headstock or other inlaid area?

GL: My answer to your question is an easy one, an unqualified “No!”

On the fingerboard, it would interfere with playability, obviously. On the headstock, it would affect my ability to level all the other materials used in the design. I prefer to create dimensionality by my choice and juxtaposition of materials and incorporating their inherent qualities, as well as through engraving and shading. Never feel to need to physically "imitate" it.

I’ve only seen your work on acoustics, have you ever worked with electrics?

GL: I’m not really interested in electrics, in terms of making, so, no, that’s not likely to happen. I did once make a very unusual customized electric thing for a customer of mine who had won a composition contest and he suddenly had the money to build this thing that he dreamt about so he came with this sketch that he drew in the morning and we came up with some wacky thing that he was happy with. It had 16 or 18 strings, was played percussively on his lap and I carved out the solid body to fit his lap the way he sat. All kinds of stuff like that.

Someone else designed the electronics and I put them all into a removable unit with some a sort of an xlr cable that would pull from off five separate signals, so all the electronics were off board. But it was neat. It was fun to do as a single project. But it’s not where my interests lay.

Tell us about your growth as a musician.

GL: Well, I’ve been playing music since I was a kid and I made my spending money in high school playing little local clubs. It’s been part of my life for a long time.

But, I’ve pretty much always played on the side. I’ve quieted down a bit these days. I mean, I’m in my fifties and I’m just so busy with other things that I found I was running out of time, just for keeping up a repertoire and rehearsing. So I’ve actually been saying “No.” to some gigs except a band that I still play with. One that I’ve played with for thirty, yeah, thirty years. But, through the years I’ve been a songwriter and heavily influenced by traditional music, whether it’s American, Canadian, and British traditional music.

I’ve picked up different instruments through the years. Obviously I’ve played guitar since I was a kid. But then I got into some American stuff, learning five-string banjo, dulcimer, then I got hooked up with this band Friends of Fiddler’s Green which was the house band of a club called The Friends of Fiddler’s Green that ran for a couple decades.

Then I picked up British instruments. I’m a concertina player. I play small North Umbrian pipes, English but bagpipes to play a little tin whistle and I even play the fiddle. Those sorts of things when I have cover so you don’t actually hear me. So I call it playing with the fiddle rather than playing the fiddle [Laughs]. So, I’m in that world and I still love traditional music modern songwriters who evident some roots in traditions, that push the boundaries. That’s where my heart is even though I love all kinds of music from good old rock ‘n’ roll to Stephen Sondheim, but it’s still where my heart is.

And through the years I’ve recorded for Stan Rogers’s label when he was alive. In fact, I was the first person he recorded other than himself when he began expanding the label be more than just a vanity label.

There were six other artists on there when he died in that plane accident. So I recorded for him and I’ve done, I guess, four solo records through the years. And was actually in pre-production for another one because I had lots of other new songs that I was performing that weren’t available anywhere. Then Backbeat got interested in the book I did, it was presented to them and that ended up being my book, “The Guitar Maker’s Canvas”. I set that aside and then things just got busy.

Not only the record label I’m involved in which is really a full-time job, but I do it totally extra-curricula and don’t draw anything from it. And I’m also now involved in a nation wide group that got national folks music awards started in Canada a couple of years ago. Juried awards, not just members of the association voting for their friend kind of thing, but full national juried awards, complex process, but we wanted to give them some validity. So we’re now moving. We’re now in to our third year. I’m on that board I was one of the instigators that got it started. So that’s taking time, you know, those kinds of things.

So, you’re really into traditional music?

GL: Yeah, definitely that’s where my heart is, even though I enjoy all kinds of music as most people do. To me, if it’s done well and it’s done well with passion and if it moves me, then I’m into it. I want to be touched by that music and if it leaves me cold, it leaves me cold.

International music?

GL: I’m always interested. I mean there have got to be certain other parameters, that’s my personal thing, if I don’t understand the language and what’s being said I’m very keyed in on lyrics, maybe that’s out of the British tradition thing or something. But, yeah, I love South African music. There are all kinds of world music that fascinates me.

Definitely, yep, I’m just a music fan and I think most of us who are someone connected to the music biz that’s what gets you there. You’re someone who sees music as a very important part of your life and enriching life and if you’re someone who’s moved by music enough to want to perform it or create it, then I don’t think you can ever lose that.

What types of other instruments do you own, banjos, mandolins, violins?

GL: Well, I do own other instruments and many made by other people. With guitars, there’s obviously my own. And I play mandolin too. That’s really my second instrument. And I have a tenor mandolin that I call a tenor mandolin that I play. I still make a few of those for people.

But then the pipes I have are handmade in England by Colin Ross. The concertina I have is actually an original Wheatstone from the turn of the 20th century. But it was rebuilt by a friend of mine who took over all that was left of the Wheatstone Company that had been lying foul. I think it went bankrupt in the ‘50s and in the ‘70s he bought everything that was left, the copyright, the parts, and the tools.

Steve Dickenson is his name and he began making Wheatstone concertinas again, same quality. And so he completely rebuilt it in every way. The only thing original was the reed pan and the reeds. It was an old beat up thing, but it sounded lovely. Those are my main instruments.

The banjo, I made a banjo for myself. I made a banjo neck and put it on an old Vega tenor. I made a five string for myself, an old short neck tenor, not a plectrum. I just took the rim and made a neck. That was pretty common. And that was one of the first things I made. And that was a good starter, to make the neck, a playable neck and on a banjo. That’s still the one.

Do you have apprentices that you mentor?

GL: No, I work alone. I’ve been that way all along. I enjoy working alone. As you can imagine, I’m asked about apprenticeships all the time. And I’m sure many makers do. And I will guide them. I will sit them down and say "Come over!". Sit with them for a half hour and tell them where they can go. Here’s are some things you can do to get started and help them in any way. I have a policy. If anybody calls me, or these days, e-mails me with a construction problem I will respond. I’ll stop what I’m doing. You know, I’ve had people say “Oh my God, I’m doing this dovetail and it didn’t work!” And it’s, “What am I going to do?”

You feel like you’re talking someone down from a suicide line. Don’t worry we can solve this. Relax, here’s what you can do. And I’m happy to do that. It’s a way to give back.

You’re considered the founder of A.S.I.A.(Association Stringed Instrument Artisans) , right?

GL: In the early days I was part of the group that got A.S.I.A. started. I’m one of the group that founded it. And I was the last of its founders still on the board after the first ten years. I was its president for a while and obviously I’ve pulled back and others have moved in and it’s great. It’s another way for people to associate and it’s that and the Guild of American Luthiers are all good at conveying information. In all kinds of ways you feel you’re giving back. And I’ve now started to do some teaching. You know, week sessions. Mostly, so far, it’s been focused on inlay and design, engraving and design, the two difficult parts.

Have you given any thought to producing an instructional video?

GL: I’ve considered it. I think it’s a worthwhile idea. I just haven’t ever gotten around to it. It’s an invasive thing for a while to catch all the steps, but I think it’s a worthwhile thought and it’s rolling around there. So, probably, I always said, You know, one day when you start feel the arthritis in the fingers and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel or the opposite, that I bring somebody on and make sure I pass on what I know. It’s certainly a good way to learn, as I did.

But, I’m not there yet and despite this immediate illness I’m dealing with. That one I’ll beat. So, I’m pretty jealous of my time. I guess I’m so busy with other things I just want to get my work done and not slow down. It’s a very personal thing. But it does make me think, “How else to leave for posterity some of the things I’ve learned?”

To pass on your legacy.

GL: Yeah, you know, well, no two builders' experience is exactly the same and can add to the collective knowledge and I think that’s important. So, you know, video, DVD, kind of a record. Some kind of visual image record is obviously a go. So probably, something like that will happen. Nothing’s in the works at the moment.

Is there a guitar that you would consider the “Holy Grail” of inlaid guitars and if you do have that, is it a complex design or are you more awed by a more elegant simple design?

GL: You’re talking of my own work?

No. Others, even historical work that you’ve seen inlaid.

GL: You know, there are certainly many impressive projects out there, historical or current. Just the sheer amount of work somebody put in to it is impressive. But in terms of design I have to be honest, “No”. I have to be honest; it feels like uh, I’m trying to figure out how to say this without ego getting in the way. Because, it’s not how I feel about it.

I don’t see anybody doing exactly what I’m doing with inlay. I see some people trying. And through the years, because I’ve done lectures and slide shows and all kinds of people have seen it from big manufacturers to unusual makers. I’ve seen all kinds of people expanding what they do with inlay and thinking differently and I think that’s great. And you just get more interesting inlay work on all kinds of instruments these days even some production stuff. And I think that’s fantastic. And I think everybody’s enjoying that. But in terms of, I'm still, I’m sort of out front in terms of my approach.

And I kind of wish it weren’t so because there’s very few people I can have good conversations about it. But that said, there’s some excellent and creative work being done by other people who don’t necessarily take my approach. But they are finding new things to do. I mean, Larry Robinson is certainly a key person. And all he does is inlay, he’s not a guitar maker, he does inlay. But still he pushes some boundaries on certain traditional approaches that no one else had done, complex projects, never mind disseminating techniques for people widely which is great.

Harvey Leach is another one. He doesn’t take my approach at all. And it isn’t my personal taste. He goes very, very small. Very little engraving, but tiny, tiny cutting.

Wouldn’t be my approach because I have an interest in keeping my sanity and he obviously somehow can deal with it, maybe it's drugs. I’m not sure. But he does very complex things with that style. Things that are admirable by any stretch. As well as he’s done some really original things that I say, “Oooh, there’s a clever idea! Wish I’d have thought of that. And I’m gonna steal that one!”, you know? [Laughs]

For example, things that impress me and there may be others from other people, but this is just one that comes to mind. It’s not to short change any one else I’m mentioning. He’s done some things where he wants to show images reflected in a mirror. Now I’ve done things like that. What I will do is you will see the back of the head, but you’ll see the front of the face reflected. I will take some brush work very faint, very faint tinted sealer, and I will brush it so it looks like the grain of the shell pieces next to it continuing as if it’s reflecting in that piece. That has been my way of dealing it in some situations.

What he does is he carefully re-inlays the mirror image of whatever part he’s depicting and over the top he puts a super thin layer of mother of pearl, so thin, and he’s so careful in his sanding that it’s evenly thin that you can see through it and you see a fake image which looks exactly like a reflection or certainly, you know, as close as you’d want. Brilliant idea! And that’s very finicky!

Almost like a fog over it?

GL: Yeah, so you’d see the image but kind of fuzzy in the way it might be if you were distant from the image. It’s not exactly like a mirror reflection, but it duplicates the effect quite impressively. In a way, that’s funnily, you see it first and you look at it and then it’s one of those, “Oh my, look at that!” So there’s work like that.

One other person is a woman named Rene Karnes the banjo maker who also does very intricate inlay on her banjos and it’s, once again, more done in traditional style but pushed to the limit. It’s very, very delicate and complex in the traditional approach.

So there’s interesting work being done there and I throw all those names out as well, because as it happens, this summer an exhibit on our work, the four of us, is happening at the Museum of Music Making in Carlsbad, California that’s associated with NAMM and all that. They're having a special show that’ll be out for about six weeks with just our work, first time just showing inlay work of the four of us.

That was their choice of who to include and all that. Rick Turner’s has been helping getting it together.

What projects are you working on at the moment?

GL: Well, certainly a lot of approaches on the go. And some interesting inlays coming up. I’ve got to do an inlay of Yosemite somehow that includes some of the natural features that would define it, but make it work on a guitar neck.

Like Half-Dome?

GL: I don’t know, I’m not familiar with the park. So, I just need to do some research. But I know about it. But also about some of the fauna and birds and stuff that inhabit it. So, that will be different for me.

But I have one guitar in the spray booth that you’ll find interesting, the inlay anyway.

This is a courtroom scene because the guy getting it lives in Malaysia. He’s a lawyer and he wanted a courtroom scene and he wanted himself in it. And so he’s interrogating a witness and he left if up to me how I’d assemble the courtroom scene and who is there and all of that. So, he didn’t know what I did until just recently when I sent him an e-mail recently. I’m all done, so here’s what you’re gonna get! I’m so spoiled!

I found a way to bring me into it in a subtle way. A relative of mine until he passed away was Canada’s Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Bora Laskin was his name, very progressive and some great precedents were set under him. He was sort of a cousin of my grandfather that sort of thing. So anyway a relative. So I decided to make him the presiding judge. And I got Canada in there too. And then this guy of course is arguing the case and sitting in the witness box is Jimi Hendrix. And I decided that the title of this is the Court Case Battle which is “Acoustic versus Electrics”. And I know this guy who’s getting this guitar is a serious player and collector of acoustic guitars. And I thought, “As a lawyer wouldn’t he enjoy arguing the case for acoustic guitars?” So that’s the scene I created.

What a bias you have!

GL: Hey well, I wasn’t’ worried. So there’s me having fun, but creating a little story. That just satisfies me.

And whimsical in nature.

GL: Yeah. But everything looks legit the way the court is set up. Even how to do that, I’m looking at court set ups and copied the style, very august paneling, you know that sort of thing. I had to change the juxtaposition of the witness box to judge’s dais and all that to get it into the narrow canvas. But not in a way that doesn’t look real.

My next question is “Do you continue to get excited about what you’re doing?” and it’s obvious you do!

GL: Yeah, yeah, yeah I love doing this. There’s no question, this is my first love. If I had to cut back on things in life it would never be the guitar making. Everything else would go, before this. It’s just way too many unending challenges as I’m sure any other guitar maker you’ve interviewed tells you. Turning out exceptionally sounding instruments more and more frequently not just really good, but exceptional.

And fine tuning the work and no matter how long your making guitars you know if you can get that one miter bite on the binding from one chisel stroke. Boy does that make your day? Things like that. You have opportunity for these satisfactions, never mind you get the other layer of the whole thing of the music that comes out of it.

It’s hard to beat. Never mind the fact that it’s a difficult craft. It’s technically a craft, but it’s a category of its own, because of the fact it’s a musical instrument. So, like anything difficult when you achieve it well you’re even more satisfied. And when I add the inlay work, which is me getting paid to have fun creating the kind of parts I want to make. And I don’t have to battle the usual art world and all the dynamics that happen there. And I have a number of artists friends who are frustrated with all the art speak, trends and stuff. And I don’t have to deal with that.

I’m getting paid to do it in my world, in the guitar and music world! You know, I’d be nuts to stop this. I’m not painting it [Pauses], I’m not psychotic in that every day is cheerful. Things go wrong and working in the natural materials things screw up. And some days you wish you were a basket weaver when things, when you imagine things would be a lot more simple, where don’t have to deal with this stupid filler that changed color under the finish and I need to strip everything down or whatever it might be. The ongoing challenges. But, all those other things are there!

There’s a writer who wrote a book called “Optimal Flow" about turning a wrench or some other actions where everything exquisitely comes together and you're in the zone.

GL: Yep, yep. And you know if you bring a creative approach to what you do, I told you it’s one of the reasons I like staying small, because I have to do everything. And it doesn’t mean I do everything with a hand tool. You know, I have lots of routers, and sanders and saws.

That’s not what it’s about. But having the opportunity to be the single mind that’s weighing every aspect of this instrument is the fun. To me it’s an enjoyable part of it. It’s what helps you turn out something excellent every time. Which I must because I have a waiting list and people would be disappointed. They certainly wouldn’t have any trust. You know, they wouldn’t want to buy from me something sight unseen.

So I’ve got to deliver! There’s just so much pleasure there. I don’t want to tool up so that the jigs do all the work. I like to get in and get dirty.

Page one of Grit Laskin interview »

Related Links
Grit Laskin
Borealis Records
Harvey Leach
Rene Karnes
Larry Robinson
Museum of Making Music
Museum of Civilization - Canada
David Wren - 12th Fret

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