Paul Reed Smith Interview

by Tom Wheeler and Rick Landers

Introduction by Tom Wheeler

If typical readers of this site were asked to place Paul Reed Smith Guitars among its peers, the names Gibson and Fender would no doubt come to mind. Early PRS guitars were invariably described as echoing design cues from both companies' products - the humbuckers, figured woods, three-on-a-side tuners, and the deluxe appointments of a Les Paul, the curvy sleekness of a Strat. I think those comparisons are simplistic and underestimate PRS's innovations in scale length, construction methods, trem refinements, pickup design, esthetics, and more. But certainly Paul Smith has expressed his admiration for the genius and practicality of Leo Fender. Ted McCarty, former Gibson Guitar president, was not only a profound influence and the namesake of a PRS guitar hailed by Guitar Player magazine as the quintessential humbucker solidbody, he was also a revered friend and mentor to Paul. So it makes sense to compare PRS guitars to Fenders and Gibsons. Dealers, players, and reviewers all do it. And in terms of industry influence, the PRS company is a major player, like Fender and Gibson.

But in the midst of PRS's year-long Twentieth Anniversary celebration, as I reflect on where Paul has taken his company, another name comes to mind as a kind of peer, a name never associated with rock music or electric guitars. Christian Friedrich Martin was a German woodworker and shop foreman with experience in making cabinets, furniture, violins, and guitars. He knew the smell of varnishes and glues, the heft of the mallet and chisel, the feel of sawdust under his fingernails. He emigrated to New York in 1833 and five years later relocated to a German-American community in Nazareth, Pennsylvania. For more than three decades he ran the company that bore his name and would set the world standard for acoustic flat-top guitars. I think of C.F. Martin now when I think of Paul Smith, not because Paul Smith developed virtually a new instrument, as did Martin and his successors, but rather because this profoundly modern manufacturer, cutting-edge designer and child of the rock and roll era also remains something of an anachronism in today's industry. He is a craftsman turned industry leader.

Of the major guitar companies who are known today for groundbreaking innovation and elegant execution, how many are still run by soldering-gun & toolbelt guys, people who know how to plane a fingerboard, wind a pickup, carve a top with hand tools, people whose ears can distinguish the resonant peak of this or that pickup, not to mention someone who can get up onstage, plug in, and hold their own with the likes of Carlos Santana? PRS is run by a player and builder for whom company management is a matter of on-the-job training rather than the application of an MBA. He designed these guitars, and it's his name that goes on every one. I think these facts illuminate the true significance of PRS's Twentieth Anniversary.

Anniversaries are times for celebration and reflection, so let's look back. Let's hoist a brew to the good times, back in the day. All well and good. But the best thing about this anniversary is not its nostalgic aspects but rather its rejuvenating jolt. Look at what's happening at PRS, right now. Have you seen a Modern Eagle? Have you heard a 513? Have you played a Hollowbody? Can you find a more impressive bargain than an SE?

I suspect Paul Smith is too busy to devote too much time to celebrations anyway (as I write this he's on a plane to the Mideast for a business deal, then it's on to Europe for some gigs with his band). While his instruments often bring comparisons to those of his heroes, which is understandable and impressive, it's still too soon to assess his place in the larger scheme of things. And what's the hurry? It's meaningful to celebrate how far he's come, but let's not forget, Paul Reed Smith is still on the move.

Interview with Paul Reed Smith by Rick Landers

PRS received the "Best Guitar" award at the 2005 MusicMesse, Frankfurt, Germany. To what do you attribute that level of success?

Paul Reed Smith: Thank you, it was a big deal. That award was voted on by fifty-four magazines. It's not a consumer popularity award. It's also not an award from a single magazine that might be slanted by advertising dollars. And because nobody knows who voted for whom, it's pretty honest.

A demonstration we did at NAMM, where our clinician, Michael Ault, would run through 10 or 15 of the most storied guitar tones on record without ever touching the amplifier, was pretty impressive to the industry.

You have your Strat pickups, Teles, Gretsch Filterons, humbuckers, P-Basses and Jazz Basses. We were taking a shot at it and anytime anyone attempts to do a new pickup shape it's tough. There aren't that many new shapes that are accepted into the market.

We came in with a new shape and new way of doing it, a new way of wiring, new tips on the switches, new knobs - new everything - you name it. And I think the award is the magazines' acknowledgment that they think it was a good shot at a grounded new product.

There are a lot of things that come out where people are pushing the envelope, but it's a little too outside. So, I see the award as an extraordinarily positive indication from the magazines and I love that they did it.

The coolest thing about those awards is that all the CEOs from all the different guitar companies were there. They were all sitting in the same room and that never happened before, and I thank the magazines for this every time. And I thank the guitar magazines' leadership for running these things so professionally.

And it was the first time some of us had even seen some of the people from the Japanese publications.

You used the term success in your question. I don't know if I would use the word success. I think it's our peers' acknowledgment of our efforts to move the whole guitar thing forward. I think that's what it is. So, it's not success. It's not based on success. You can have a product of the year and have no sales at all. It's their acknowledgment of our effort that was the success.

The story goes that you took the best from the Stratocaster and the best from the Les Paul to come up with your first guitar.

PRS: Is that what really happens with first guitars? No, that's not really what happens with first guitars. First guitars are like when you're in a band. The first thing you do is play Proud Mary.

I tried to make guitars that were close to what my heroes played. That's the way it's done. My experience is that you have to do it like a musician. You have to learn the language before you can learn to be a novelist.

When you take a Stratocaster and a Les Paul and you put them together, it's ugly and it doesn't work. But if you grew up playing a 25 ½ inch scale guitar or you grew up with a 24 5/8 inch scale guitar, it's very hard for you to go to the other.

But something in the middle works.

And the problem with a 24 5/8 inch scale guitar is that when you hit the low E on a .42 gauge string it goes sharp. It goes whawrrrrrrr! On a 25 inch sale guitar the guitar is a little hard on the strings. I like the scale length we came up with. It just works -- it just flat out works.

You did that on your own around 1984?

PRS: That was an interesting time because I was making all the decisions on my own with feedback from one, two or three people. Now, I've got the feedback of forty or more and then the whole industry. At that time I made decisions much more on my own.

For example, the PRS 513 has a 25 ¼ inch scale. That's the old D'Angelico scale. We decided that as a group and it works. The 513 works. You can feel it's a little longer, but not so long that it's a stretch. And we're just talking about scaling, we're not talking about body thickness, body weight, pots, switches, tuning pegs, nuts, or inlays. It goes on and on and on and on. We're just talking about one thing.

I would say that if you grew up with a 25 1/2 or a 24 5/8 inch scale you'd be happy playing the guitar. Pretty much gets the sounds you want out of it.

In the beginning, how did you survive?

PRS:Doing repairs and making about one guitar a month. Just enough to sustain. Ask anybody in a garret shop - you're not making any money. My tax returns were $8,000 to $9,000 a year. They were terrible.

You can't spend all month working on a pickup design.

I don't know if you know it, but I was in Root Boy Slim's band with Diana Bogart, Tommy Lepson, Marshall Keys, and Bud Holloway. We were playing and I'd change the pickup in the guitar every night until I found one that sounded good. It took a long time. Very interesting process. You spend all month winding pickups trying to find the perfect pickup. It was very tedious.

You don't make any money!

I was pretty intent on trying to come up with something. I was making one little piece at a time. I was marking where the frets were with a magnifying glass, a dark tip pen and a ruler marked off in hundredths of an inch and I was splitting the dot with a saw! [Laughs] And those guitars stay in tune!

I could tell you lots of stories, but basically, you don't make any money in a garret shop unless you're D'Angelico and you're back-ordered for a couple of years and you're getting big money for your guitars and you're not trying to develop new stuff.

His guitars, by the way, are awesome! In my mind D'Angelico was the best.

You must have been a driven young man to set out to make a better guitar.

PRS: I don't know that the goal was to make a better guitar. The goal was to make a guitar that was a very good tool for a musician to use.

I was a repairman, so I knew all the problems that Fender guitars had, that Gretsch guitars had, Gibson guitars had, Ovations, and Rickenbackers. You name it, I knew it.

Did you know that the truss rods on the old Rickenbacker basses just slide right out of the neck? They would put Floyd Rose nuts on guitars and the truss rod adjustment was under the nut! You couldn't get to the truss rod adjustment to adjust the thing! I could tell you millions of stories.

I knew what all the problems were, so I was trying to set it up so a repairman would have none of those problems.

I was looking for an instrument that would be a really good tool for musicians.

Now, your photographer has a camera in his hands. That's a tool for him to do his job. It's either doing the job well or it's not. Either he's looking through it and he's taking a picture, not thinking about it, or he has a problem, right? Aren't you also looking for a guitar without a problem?

You want to be able to wear the guitar and forget you have it on. You're playing music with your band mates and not even aware of the amplifier. If the guitar has a problem, that's not what you want going on. So, I never thought of it as competition, mostly I thought that if you made a magic guitar, it would sell. If it did the job. It works if a guy can go take it to his band job and get through the gig without the instrument being a problem.

At that point in time, people were actually playing Fenders for the rhythm parts and Gibsons for all the solo parts. The joke was, wouldn't it be nice if we could change guitars in the middle of a tune, if you could cover me for the last few bars - you play the bridge and I'll play the solo and we'll switch guitars. That's nuts!

The guys that are good Strat players, good Tele players, playing loud through high gain amps have brilliant ways to deal with the hum. But think about playing distorted with that kind of hum. I can't do it. Well, they can and they're playing with big strings, getting ridiculous tone out of it, kind of half-clean and half-dirty. And the amp kind of goes whaaaraaahhh pushing it over the edge and goes into this thing, pretty cool. It's pretty cool!

So, I knew there were problems. I knew that Fenders were being shipped with file marks on the fretboards. You couldn't give away Les Pauls. It was a very tough time. Guitars weren't even playing in tune! Pots weren't working right, finishes with too much polyester, neck angles weren't right, fret levels -- just a very bad time.

Let's just remember the art of guitar making. I think it had been lost for awhile.

How do you maintain a focus on detail and excellence with PRS employees?

PRS: Imagine that you've just been hired to work in the finish room. You are now working five, five-and-a-half, or six days a week and you're working on the prep bench for guitars to be sprayed. It's hard, meticulous work.

Now, you can either put your time in and not give a damn or a beautiful guitar will come through that you've worked on and you go, "Wow, look at that -- I actually made a difference!"

So, even the jaded guys on final assembly get a beautiful guitar on their bench and say, "I can't believe it -- I just can't believe it!" So there's a pride issue that happens.

You can't hire someone and say you've got to love it or you're fired.

I've thanked my employees dozens of times about them loving them, but you can't ask for it.

So, you have someone spending time doing something and they don't want to do it painfully, they'd rather to do it lovingly.

Let's say you've worked here for five years and you realize you may work here another ten or twenty. And you ask yourself whether you want to leave a good legacy or do you want to leave a shitty legacy? There's some of that.

There are times when product is more important than people and sometimes the people are more important than the product. But, the one thing we're proud of as an organization is that question of, "Where else do you have a shot at being one of the best?"

So, there's a big pride thing going on here.

Do you do this through hiring practices? I don't think so. It's really pressing to make sure everything's okay. It comes from a real love for the product and a real love for the new stuff. And we see ourselves as leaders and we try to lead with our product.

Ever been to a NAMM show and see a booth that is the same as the year before? I look at the booth and wonder, "What did you do all year?"

We're trying to introduce new stuff all the time. It's tough, always pushing, always pushing. It's painful. It's hard work. But the other side of the coin is to not work and have the same shit as last year. That's not cool. In the computer world you'd be out of business.

Can you still find a Leica flex, the greatest camera of all time?

That's what Ansel Adams used and found it took his breath away when he took a photograph. To me, that would be a product that would last for a very, very long time and not need to be modified. But now that's gone - no longer in production!

How often do they update cameras? Every couple of years, or every few months with the digitals. So in the camera business today, you won't survive if you don't innovate. In the guitar business you may or may not.

The guitars being sold today were designed between 1948 and 1959, Gibson SGs in '61. So, we're looking at stuff that was designed 45 years ago. How dare we try to re-design something that was done back then?

You know why that stuff sells?

Because they're still good tools - they still work! They still work, like the toaster - bread goes down, toast comes up -- it works. Ovens, tires, gas stoves, camera lenses, you've got your fisheye wide angle lens that's hard to improve.

How do you ensure PRS guitars are perfect or near perfect going out the door?

PRS: There's no such thing as perfect. Care, meticulousness, love, training, diligence, perseverance, time, pain - that pretty much covers it. And we let things take the time they take.

Why do you call some of the PRS guitars a "10 Top?"

PRS: It came from the movie 10! [Smiles]

The whole concept of the movie was that on a scale of beautiful women from 1 to 10, Bo Derek was a 10. With us, it started with Jimmy Wallace, a friend from the Venice Guitar Shows. He'd say, "Now Paul, you go out in the back and pick me a real nice one for my guitar!"

People started calling us and saying they weren't going to just take a guitar that came off the line. They wanted a really nice one. We started getting a lot of calls like that. So, we decided, "That's it -- we need to grade them!" I said, "On a scale from 1 to 10", and it came from the movie. And it's our thing.

When we started, there wasn't any curly maple in the business, except some in the violin booths. When I came, it had stopped, it was gone.

Curly maple's a stress in the wood you see a lot in the stumps. Turns out, the way they think it grows is that when there's a big canopy in the forest and there's a little tree trying to grow, trying to grow, trying to grow and struggle, struggle, struggle and a big one falls over and there's a huge opening with the light in the canopy and the little one starts growing and it goes curly. And it's not the seed because they've planted curly maple seeds and they don' t go curly. So, we think it's from stress.

I don't hear a big change in the tone with curly maple. I do think that quilted maple sounds different than curly. I can hear that. Curly, quilted, red maple, sugar maple all sound different. By the way, German curly maple sounds really good! And German spruce sounds good! But you don't find many big trees in Germany.

Entrepreneurs who start companies often don't have the type of personality to maintain a larger business. Have you found this to be an issue?

PRS: The answer to your question is "yes" and "no".

There are things that I am not very good at and I have a lot of help in those areas. There is a president of our company. His name is Jack Higgenbottom. Peter Wolf runs sales and marketing, Larry Urie handles our domestic sales, Marc Quigley's our Art Director and Laura Rausch is covering communications, like what we're doing here. For me to think that I'm better than everybody and don't need them is crazy.

People by themselves can be pretty stupid. People working together can be very powerful.

I think I've been accused of being the dinosaur in this organization at times, but I don't see it and think that our success rate is a direct reflection of whether that's true or not. I see money as a reflection of how much impact you're having on the world. I see money as a metaphor in a way.

I don't think the world gives anything away. We're trying to solicit and we're doing about $25,000,000 worth of business a year. That means we're asking the world to give us $25M. Nobody gives $25M to anybody if they're not getting $25M worth out of it. Forget it. It just doesn't happen.

I have my own hard earned money and if I buy a fly rod, I'm going to give my money to the company that's giving me value. I'm going to the guy who gives me my money's worth. People will pay exactly what things are worth give or take a few bucks. You might pay a few bucks more if you like the dealer and think the dealer will take care of you, but most people are going to the Internet and don't care about that. I don't think that hard earned money is given away.

I lean very heavily on the experts that are here at PRS and am pretty good at letting people do what they are good at -- they're experts. I'm sure you will find people who say that I'm too heavily involved but, well, to answer your question, we're doing okay and I lean heavily on the experts that are here.

It's a very delicate balance. When your magazine grows to 100 employees, you'll find out. [Smiles]

Some guitar companies buy competitor guitars for their employees to play, allowing them time to see what's on the market. How does PRS keep a competitive edge?

PRS: We have 185 employees who own guitars and we don't have any rules. They play what they want to play and they tell us when they find something that they like. The guys in the bands here play what they want. We don't try to control anyone that way. And we get a tremendous amount of information.

Guys come in here with old vintage guitars and this and that, there's a plethora of instruments that come through here all the time.

We're not trying to do anything but just make good guitars and make them available to our customers and employees. I've heard that in Coca-Cola plants you drink Coke, you don't drink Pepsi. Or Ford Motor Company, you see a lot of Fords in the parking lot. Not a bad idea to have somebody drive the car that they're building.

But we have a lot of employees who drink Pepsi. It's okay.

There's probably a young Paul Reed Smith out there today. What do you think he's up to?

PRS: I hope he's doing his homework from a guitar making point of view. From a business point of view, I hope he's not doing his homework!

Scared?

PRS: No, I've got no reason to be frightened. We've got a good head start. Somebody's going to come up and have at it. Actually, you'd be in a better position to know if that person is out there than me. I don't see any rock stars playing an electric guitar from some new maker like you see in the acoustic guitar world.

But, there's definitely people doing their homework. I'm working with a couple of guitar makers now that I have high hopes for. One in particular -- he's got it.

Somebody's going to wake up and their job in life is going to be to make guitars. There are a lot of good, talented people at NAMM, trying to get upstairs.

There's a Paul Reed Smith Band?

PRS: Yeah, the Paul Reed Smith Band members include brothers Gary and Greg Grainger, Mike Ault who is a PRS Guitar clinician and a very good guitar player, Derek St. Holmes from Ted Nugent's band, plus Ralph Perucci who plays with the Alien Cowboys, Tracy Hamlin, and Blues Webb. John Hogg, from England, worked with us on our latest CD, The New Equation. That's basically who's playing with us. It's a good band. I enjoy it.

What guitars are you using?

PRS: I change guitars as they come and go. I have one I played for almost a decade, but I've put it away. It was the first McCarty. Now, I'm playing one I grabbed off the line. I've been playing it ever since.

What's your typical day like?

PRS: They're busy. They're very, very busy. And there's a huge variety of things to do. Before you walked in, this desk was literally covered in paper. I've got a couple hundred emails to get to, we were working on the 513, we knew you guys were coming, working on scheduling, and we've been working on contractual issues today. There's a huge variety of things

Take this moment. That was Bugs Henderson who just called a minute ago. He's one of the best blues guitarists in the world. We were working our 20th anniversary, there were a lot of trademark and patent issues yesterday, there's a lot of legal work going on to make sure everything's okay with our investors and endorsers, we have our quarterly meetings where there are lots and lots of things that we are committed to getting done and we're working to get them done. And I'm recording this weekend with the Alien Cowboys in the San Francisco area.

How do you decide on signature models?

PRS: You probably should ask Peter Wolf that since he heads up our Artist Relations. Carlos Santana is kind of obvious. Mark Tremonti because he brought rock guitar back to radio. Dave Navarro because, well, he's Dave Navarro.

We typically don't do signature guitars like Fender and Martin. But, we do it when it feels right. I mean, if we were Fender, we would have done a Stevie Ray Vaughan signature model too. My God what a guitar player!

What new signature or limited edition PRS guitars are you developing?

PRS: I don't know and if I knew, I couldn't tell you because you are on the Internet and you'd be telling our customers, our representatives, and distributors before us.

It used to be that I could talk to someone in Texas and nobody would hear about it. Now, the moment I open my mouth it's all over the world. The second I say something, guys in Germany know it. It's basically a wonderful thing because more information is spread, but you have to keep your mouth shut.

What's cookin' in the PRS amplifier arena?

PRS: We're playing around with things. But, once again if I tell you, think about it, our distributor in Germany just got an award for our 20th Anniversary, we're real partners and I'm gonna tell you something before I tell him? That's very worrisome. [Smiles]

The answer is I don't know. If I did, I might be able to tell you something, but I really don't know.

Anyway, you know I realize you're doing your job. I think the role of a journalist is to relay the past, say what the present is and predict the future. It's a real soothsayer thing. And I know that this isn't the regular view of journalists. But that's my view on it.

So, you're just doing your job and you're going to keep pressing. That's okay.

You've collaborated with acoustic guitar maker Dana Bougeois?

PRS: Dana and I made eleven acoustic prototypes and they were wonderful instruments. It didn't work out, he's a very good guitar maker and I think there's an appreciation for each other's talents. He's a good man. We just haven't been able to work it out yet and we've tried several times.

China is expected to be a huge market for the West. Any plans?

PRS: I was there last year and we did clinics in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong. But, music stores haven't matured over there yet like the Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Their car market is maturing and you see Mercedes, Bentleys, and Jaguars.

There are music trade shows now that should help everyone find good suppliers. There's also a music magazine over there, run by a friend of mine, that seems to be taking hold.

Your thoughts about PRS celebrating its 20th anniversary?

PRS: I started out in my bedroom in Bowie, Maryland. We told the story in our guitar icon book and when we reminisced about it, we were all pretty proud of what happened.

You really have to look back in order to really grasp it. We're moving forward so much we don't look back much.

How do I feel about it?

Proud and appreciative.

By the way, you didn't ask about the lawsuit. I'm amazed. You're the first person to not ask about that. [Editor: Referring to the pending trademark lawsuit between Gibson Guitar and PRS Guitars over the Singlecut body design.]

We know there may be sensitive legal issues involved, so we decided not to ask.

PRS: Well, first of all I, appreciate that you didn't ask about it.

In my mind, it's like not being allowed to be in the mini-van business.

You've been to NAMM, how many booths have single cut-away guitars?

I don't think that anyone has ever thought at the point of sale that they were buying one brand and not another. It's been taken to the Federal appeals court, so we're one level below the Supreme Court and we're awaiting a decision. We're just waiting to see what happens.

A huge cross section of the industry came out to support us with an amicus curiae, "friend of the court", brief and told the judges what they thought.

How many guitars have single-cut bodies? And I'm not allowed to do it? I mean there are some guitars out there that are almost exact tracings of Les Pauls that have been around for fifty years! I can name them for you. Our guitar doesn't even fit in the same case!

We recently received an M.I.P.A. award from the international press for our Singlecut and I think the message to us from the writers is that we'd drawn the line in the right place.

I didn't put knobs in the same place, there's a different headstock, different inlays, not the same scale, no binding on the neck, it's got a one piece bridge the other has a two piece, no thumb cutters, and there are more differences.

Nobody's picked up our guitar and thought, "I bought a Gibson." Now it's very interesting that it used to be in Japan you could by a "Marsnall" amplifier that looked like a Marshall, except for the company breaking off the top of the "h" in Marshall. Now that is confusing people who could think they were buying a Marshall. By the way, Fender's been very supportive towards PRS in this whole ordeal.

It is what it is. It happened and I think everyone in the music industry thought this fight was coming for a long time. I understand what they're trying to do.

What does PRS have planned for 2005 Summer NAMM in Indianapolis?

PRS: We have a few new things that we're working on. Johnny Hiland may be there. He has been doing demonstrations for us and he's a really good guitar player. I mean really good -- scary good! And I hope Johnny comes. It would be an absolutely wonderful thing for people to watch this guy play. He's just a wonderful guitar player and it would be great to see him play any guitar, much less ours.
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About Tom Wheeler

Tom Wheeler knows his way around guitars and writing. After freelancing for Rolling Stone, he joined the staff of Guitar Player and became its Editor in Chief four years later. He served in that capacity for ten years, was also the founding Editorial Director of Bass Player, and continues to provide a monthly column for Guitar Player. His first encyclopedia, The Guitar Book: A Handbook for Electric and Acoustic Guitarists, was published by Harper & Row in various languages over a period of 14 years; a new Japanese translation was published in 2000. His next book, American Guitars: An Illustrated History, has been in print for more than 20 years and was called by one retail catalog "the best book ever written about guitars."

His most recent book, The Stratocaster Chronicles, released in 2004 in conjunction with the 50th anniversary of the Fender Stratocaster, is well on its way to becoming a guitar book classic (review of The Stratocaster Chronicles on Modern Guitars).

Wheeler co-edited Richard Smith's Fender: The Sound Heard 'Round The World, and also wrote the foreword. He wrote the foreword for The PRS Guitar Book, and contributed chapters to Gibson Guitars, 100 Years of an American Icon; The Electric Guitar; Electric Guitars of the Fifties; and Electric Guitars of the Sixties; among others. He has been interviewed by The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, U.S. News & World Report, MTV, NPR, the BBC, and CNN. He is a consultant to The Smithsonian Institution, host of the American Guitar video series, and the writer and host of informational videos for Fender and Guild. He holds a Juris Doctor degree from the Loyola School of Law, is currently a member of the faculty of the University of Oregon's School of Journalism, and gigs regularly with soul singer Deb Cleveland.